how do you feel about that experience now, today? what does it feel like physically, when you remember it?

it was a long time ago, and i’ve thought about it a lot, so it’s not upsetting when i think about it. i mean, i can remember the intense distress, it still has that significance. and i think about it regularly still, and i’ve written about it. it has the meaning, but if i think about it then it’s just what it is; a thing that happened.

is it a numb feeling?

i don’t think- i still think about it entirely in the sense of how it made me feel.

when you told the story to me, did you have anxiety or discomfort?

yes.

i felt that listening to you. what was that like?

it’s like, even if i feel ‘okay’ about it- i don’t think i’m a bad person about it; i was a little kid, it was what i’d been taught -the content of it always makes me a little uncomfortable when i tell it to other people, worried that they’ll think i’m a racist. i mean, i think it’s okay, but what if they see it differently? or if they understand it as a big dumb show, like idiots making a spectacle of not being racist and not realizing how poorly it reads to everyone else.

and they think badly of you now?

yeah. in my mind, it seems unlikely, but maybe it’s not. maybe it’s nothing like i think it is.

yes, that’s what it always comes back to for you: what if you don’t know what everyone else knows. like in the story itself.

lol

i’ll tell you my experience of listening to you tell that story. i felt like you were being very open, and i only felt empathy for you as a child. and let’s be honest about the situation here: you’re telling this story, and the person who’s sitting across from you is an African-American woman.

yeah, yeah.

my experience was nothing like what you’re describing being afraid of.

of course, i was considering that aspect of it, but listening to you say that just now, it just occurred to me; if i think about it from that perspective, it almost feels really gross.

i’m not sure what you mean.

well, not like i’m claiming that this episode has importance that it doesn’t, because it really is a big deal to me. i’ve always thought about it a lot, and if i’m thinking of an example of a time when i was young and felt really ashamed or humiliated or whatever, then that’s probably always the first one i’ll go to in my mind. but thinking about it in this way, it kind of feels tacky to present it to you, like i’m asking for you to tell me it’s okay. especially in this context, where it’s literally your job to help me, and i’m like ‘you’re a black person, tell me that i’m not a racist.’ it’s not cool.

oh, i see. that wasn’t my experience of what you said. do you feel like that’s what you were doing?

i don’t think so. well, consciously, i feel like no, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t part of it.

well, as another human being, i can say that it never occurred to me. my experience was that you were being entirely genuine, and my interpretation of what you were saying followed from that.

it is kind of your job to tell me that though, right?

do you think i’m not being honest?

i don’t think you’re lying, like in a malicious way.

but you don’t trust that what i’m saying is genuine.

it’s not about being less than genuine. i think you genuinely want to help.

but you don’t believe that i could have a genuinely good reaction to what you say?

i mean, i can’t know that for sure. it’s safer not to assume that you don’t think i’m terrible.

hearing you say that, it’s not a great feeling, to be honest. it doesn’t feel great to be told that you just won’t believe it when i tell you my thoughts.

yeah.

it’s a real feeling of powerlessness.

well. that’s your problem, isn’t it?